Ian Rogers Answers Topspin’s Skeptics
Hypebot's Friday post "Finally, A New Face For Topspin" took a look a music marketing and sales platform Topspin Media's new new more detailed web site. And Hypebot readers took the opportunity to share some fairly storm skepticism about how useful Topspin was, pricing for its services and a general criticism of too much hype around the startup.Ever the player ready to take one for the team, Topspin's high profile CEO Ian Rogers stuck his neck our to answer, and even sometimes agree with, the critics.
I agree we've been a bit over-hyped, actually. We're just a young company, building software, working with artists, trying to figure out what marketing and distribution looks like in the future, just like y'all. But we're also a good group of music-loving people who have been very approachable — if you have issues with how we're pricing, let us know. There's nothing secretive or shady going on here.The fact of the matter is, we *are* trying to build a business. Our plan is to be around a long time, to build a working business that provides value to artists and builds value in exchange. We definitely aren't trying to sell $1.00 for $0.75 and make it up in volume like many Internet (and specifically music Internet) companies before us. Our hope is that artists will be able to appreciate this, what we provide will be of real value, and folks will be happy to pay something fair for it.
We aren't public about our pricing yet because to be honest we don't know what our pricing will be long-term.
As far as our pricing right now, we've been taking a rev share of 20% of retail which decreases as volume increases. There are pass-through costs which we don't mark up at all (in the spirit of full transparency). Please feel free to talk to the managers we've worked with and see how they feel about the value we offer in return for this. Remember, this is a % OF RETAIL which is much less than what iTunes takes (and your distributor fee is a % beyond this), and I don't think there's any question our marketing tools are far and above any "marketing" that iTunes offers the average artist. Also, this is only on transactions which run through Topspin, and I also don't think there's any question a lot of the marketing efforts done with Topspin software benefit sales on iTunes, at physical retail, etc, sales for which we receive 0%. But that's ok with us. That all comes out in the wash.
For the most part the managers we work with seem extremely excited to build out this part of their business, the part where they have a direct and meaningful connection to their fan base, are happy with the tools, and find our fees to be very fair. We're only making money when they make money, and if you consider direct-to-fan as a % of overall gross, and we are taking 20% or less than that, we are priced very competitively relative to other solutions out there. I think there's recognition that companies who don't charge enough won't be around in five years and professionals generally aren't interested in building a strategic part of their business on companies which might evaporate next year.
You refer to an issue with physical retail and accounting for cost of goods, which is an important point. We're working on this, and our partnership with Kufala is a direct attempt to address this pricing problem. We have a number of ideas on how to mitigate the "double dip" problem of fulfillment. We'll get there. This sort of trickiness is exactly why we aren't trying to go big yet, we're trying to start small, work out the intricacies, and come to market with something that's actually practical for many many artists.
Fwiw, we're Tunecore fans, too, and refer artists to them all the time. Peter Wells is on my panel Tuesday morning in NYC (along with Bruce from Hypebot): http://newmusicseminar.biz/players.php
I hope this is helpful. Thanks for the comments and interest, even if they're skeptical. 😉
ian
Hey Ian,
I love how you differentiate y’all’s focus on the “professionals” from the “hobbyists.” It’s gotta be tough to build a company like TopSpin to scale when there’s so many variables involved with each of the thousands of artists trying to discover their own fanbases. I wish you guys all the best, and I can’t wait to see what’s next!
-Adam W.
Does it make sense to charge artists for broadband and streaming? 20% for what? You don’t do fullfilment or anything but pass and direct to others who do these functions.
I really don’t get it. Nobody buys direct unless it’s an item they can’t find anywhere. An artist is better off using their on website to sell these items and not give topspin money.
As both a manager of active artists and as a writer on Musician’s Resources, I love the idea of Topspin.
If it can really deliver on the claims of integrated marketing, intelligent fan development and increased revenues from fans in a web 2.0 world, then that is brilliant news for artists.
Now that it looks like the old school record deal isn’t the holy grail (although there is life in that sucker for a while), this sort of forward thinking direct-to-fan all-in-one package is exactly what some artists are going to need.
I hope it’s as good as it looks!
Sorry guys, not drinking the Topspin Kool-Aid. Their check out system is wack. Their widgets are glitchy. Their email marketing is inferior on the receiving end compared to other services out there. I really don’t know why Trent Reznor doesn’t hire a few part-time consultants to build a system that he flatout OWNs rather than pay a percentage in perpetuity. Or better, he could release the code under Creative Commons and let every musician on the planet benefit by using the system FOR FREE.
I thinks it’s a good idea.
A company born on diversity, adaptability and Efficiency
Pricing structure to cater for the artist, (i would keep pricing quiet and run it on a quote basis)
Scaling Costs gives all campaigns a chance.
Focusing on proactive clients.
I think these 3 ethics should be applied by more B2B companies.
Happy Harry – you think direct music marketing can be reduced to an algoritm that could just get released as source code and we just plug our info into it?
I can get with the concept of a “Best Practices” template, but you’re going to need thinking, experienced humans taking measurements and making decisions…right? I just can’t get how you can make this a plug-and-play system without invoking either AI or UFOs.
The claims, the claims! Seriously folks, we want to believe, we really do. But TopSpin (as Justin Boland has rightly pointed out) is about humans working a system that cannot be replicated by machines (i.e. a service business). I fail to see how it is much more than just musictoday or echo on steroids.
If those two companies could have actually moved the needle for Artists (or come close) than maybe. But honestly, to achieve the claims that TopSpin puts on their site (enter your email list size here and get a payout there) is ridiculous and speaks volumes to Justin’s claim that its about “thinking, experienced humans taking measurements and making decisions”. If its about humans, than how can you at the same time buy into the ‘calculator’ they put forward?
They may do it better than those that came before (and there have been many chasing the same dream), but it still depends DEPENDS on the brand that the artist or label have invested in over years to accomplish it.
At a 20% vig, and the Artist fronting the bill for special products like boxed sets, is this really a good ROI for Artists who have already invested in developing their brand versus doing it themselves? For a select few, yes. What if you have to take the $1,000 course on TopSpin at Berklee to get in? The bar for ROI is very high with this model, and it applies to a small subset of Artists – mostly those that came before when the monopoly was working – like Brian Eno and David Byrne. Its really the best alternative they have, but does that make it inherently good? That’s the real question.
Its not for every Artist, and Ian says as much. Stop treating this service (again, acknowledging Justin’s last comment that its a service not a technology) like its some savior. Its an option, and a good one for a few Artists. But for chrissake, stop gushing over it.
andcamp.com seems to get it right moreso than topspin… topspin’s widgets are indeed clunky and it seems to be a closed system catering to post-major label artists. I don’t see much for the “common man musician” with topspin or much revolution aside from perpetuating the old model of middle-men, managers and what not. I find tools that empower the “hobbyist” that eventually becomes “professional” to be much more culturally and technologically revolutionary. Escape from L.A.!
I think Topspin is a great concept. There has been so much advancement in the realm of music marketing making it easier for Independent Artists to do a lot of the leg work themselves. Topspin appears to be a decent inbetween service. I also appreciate Ian Roger’ effort in explaining the position of the company. I agree with “Ex-manager” that the artist is still responsible for branding. A tool in the tool box, not the only tool you’ll need. One still needs to be aware of the vast array of tools out there, how they work and how best to use them in order to enjoy some success. I try to keep up with the advancements of these tools on my blog http://www.onlineartistpromo.com
Tom Siegel
http://www.onlineartistpromo.com
@Harry: there is a non-profit organization that is trying to do just what you suggest: CASH Music. They are only working with a select few artists currently, but the plan is to release the tools they are building as Creative Commons-licensed open-source code. The tools will be adaptable to the needs of each individual artist, so it’s not going to be quite as cold and non-human as Justin fears.
But yes, artists themselves will have to make some decisions about what’s right for them. Thinking will be required. This is not a bad thing; in fact, I think it is exactly the kind of liberation artists need.
Imagine a set of free tools that give artists of all levels total control over how they sell/distribute their music and related goods. No more middle-men!
You can learn more at cashmusic.org