Will Page pulls no punches in Your Morning Coffee interview [Transcript & Audio]

Music industry economist and truth-teller Will Page sat down with Jay Gilbert and Mike Etchart for a special bonus episode of the Your Morning Coffee podcast to discuss the value of music and music copyrights.

His article “It’s official: music’s a $40bn business. Global Value of Music Copyright ramps up 14% to $41.5bn in 2022, with publishers clawing back share,” has ignited an overdue discussion about how music is valued.

We’ve got the full must-read interview transcript, or listen below and on your favorite podcast app.

Will Page: Your Morning Coffee Podcast Interview

JAY GILBERT: Will, it’s so good to see you again. You begin this report by stating that there’s an axiom in lobbying circles that politicians are more likely to respond to bigger numbers than smaller ones. Okay. Who are these policymakers and why is this important?

WILL PAGE: Well, I think the undertone to that statement is that ego can trump economics and I think in music industry, we can relate to that observation that in terms of policymakers, you can look at anything going through the political channels, just now. Number one, of course, is AI music. Number two is Mechanical Licensing Collective from the licensing structure in the U.S. and Europe as well. And then when you go down to country by country level, you’ve got antitrust issues going on. You’ve had a three year inquiry into streaming economics in the U.K.

But before you can do anything, you’ve got to get the policymakers’ ear. So, I don’t care which side you’re on and who you’re fighting for. We’ve got to engage and the best way to engage is with a big number, not a small number. And this is the biggest number we can engage with. And it’s a verifiable, robust figure. And the fact it begins with a four, I think is going to help open doors.

MIKE ETCHART: Indeed. Well, talk about the evolution of that standalone $9.99 price, including adjusting for inflation. It’s stunning to think it goes back to, in the U.S. at least, December of 2001, back when Rhapsody got its license to stream what was then a lot of music; 15,000 catalog songs. Which was hysterical, that they were talking about matching it up to what was a blockbuster video rental card.

WILL: “Be kind and rewind.” You remember they used to say that?

MIKE: Of course. Of course.

JAY: Wow, that’s dating ourselves.

MIKE: But yeah, talk again about how cheap music has been. And even when you adjust for inflation, it’s just unbelievable. Really what we’re talking about price wise.

“rip inflation out of that $9.99 price point over the 22 year period. And where are we at – $6.53?

WILL: Well, before I do, let me just give you a blockbuster anecdote.

I went to a Movie Makers breakfast in The Ivy in Covent Garden last week, some great film writers, scriptwriters, and directors there. And one of them said that when you went into the old video shop as a couple or just two friends or partners, whatever, and you had to decide on what you wanted to watch, you would scan the shelves together and you’d always revert back to something that both people had already seen! Isn’t that interesting?

And then we look at Netflix, Disney Plus and this wealth of choice we have today. I’ll just watch “Shawshank Redemption,” well, I’ll just watch “The Usual Suspects.” You play it safe. Too much choice can lead to a paradox I guess. So, price, yeah, It’s bizarre to think, what, three months after 911? Rhapsody picked up that license to stream 15,000 catalog songs, not frontline, catalog songs, for the $9.99 price point.

And up until, what, April, May this year, we were still looking at a $9.99 price point. Not for 15,000 catalog songs, but for 120 million ISRCs. We’re offering more and more and we’re charging less and less. And what I do, which is very mischievous, is just to rip inflation out of that $9.99 price point over the 22 year period. And where are we at – $6.53?

That’s interesting. But it’s not really how the world works. If you paid $9.99 or even $10.99 today, it’s going to feel like $10.99 today. So deflating figures is a mischievous task.

The second kind of side of this story is where I take a look at the price per account user, and this is where I think there’s something more substantial to dig into, which is if there’s three people paying 15 bucks for a family plan, that’s five bucks each, You’ve got a student that’s also another five bucks each. The fact is, a lot of people are not paying $9.99 for music. They’re paying less.

So I did this blended, weighted calculation across a whole bunch of services to say what is the blended weighted cost per account user at the end of 2016, when we had all big services with family plans in effect. When we had all big services was student plans in effect, and I think the price is around about $8.70, it’s not $9.99. It’s less because of this dilution. Then I rip inflation out of that, which is far more meaningful. Had you joined music streaming in 2016, which is very plausible and you’re still there today, which is also very plausible, how much would that feel like in real terms? And the truth of the matter is it feels like less than a pint of Budweiser.

“a pint of Budweiser… costs more than all the world’s music offline on demand and ad-free for a month”

Think about that pint of Budweiser. In New York or Brooklyn it costs more than all the world’s music offline on demand and ad-free for a month. For a month! Remember that if your bladder is like mine, that Budweiser has left your system after 3 hours. But for a month you’ve got all the world’s musical repertoire and it costs less than that pint. And I just think it’s staggering, staggering just how cheap it’s become.

But to hammer the point home, as we were completing that calculation, the big shout out Nicholas Lytle, a mathematical wizard who helped model the whole thing together. And when I was modeling it all out with Nicholas Lytle, I got an email at that point sent me from Netflix saying, we’re raising your price to $17.99 a month. I was like, Are you staring inside my house?

You know what’s on my screen? I started with Netflix at $7.99. Now I’m up to $17.99 and I’m using it less.

Now I’ve just worked out that you can buy all the world’s music for less than a pint of Budweiser, so I rest my case.

JAY: Will, when you get that pint of Budweiser, do you have a choice where you could listen to a few ads and then get that Budweiser for free?

WILL: Ha! Always worth remembering the ads in Spotify were a deterrent over there to piss you off to get you to pay. So back in the early days, I used to take the most unsexy ad ever, like how to fill in your tax return and place it in playlist, which had the word lovemaking in it. And that teach the buggers to pay! Conversion was really hard. I called it premature conversion not to be confused with other premature.

JAY: Yes, thank you for that. So catalog, and I’m doing that in air quotes. It’s nearly two thirds of the music industry today. But but talk about how the industry designates what is catalog and what that picture may actually look like.

WILL: Well, if Blockbuster’s going back a bit, let’s go back even further to 1977, when a band called Meatloaf released an album called “Bat Out of Hell.” What’s that got to do with answering a question? That’s got a lot to do with answering your question, Jay. Let me kick in, why?

When in 1991, the entire American population were replacing the vinyl collection with CDs, the one title they had to replace was “Bat out of Hell” from 1977. And because we were all buying the CD to replace our vinyl collection, we couldn’t get it off the top of the charts. And the chart body looked at us and said, This is daft, charts are for new albums, not for old albums. How do we get rid of Meatloaf? And we invented this catalog rule. If you’re more than 18 months old, which Meatloaf clearly was, you’re no longer chart eligible. Meatloaf is no longer number one. That rule affects so much of today’s music economy. It affects how record labels structure their budgets, how they do headcount, who gets promotion, how you engage with streaming platforms, and how we look at charts when we read headlines like “Old Music is Killing New Music.” Utter Horseshit.

“the way we define “old” is simply out of date”

Let’s put the record straight; The way we define “old” is simply out of date. It’s too old as the definition goes, it’s antiquated. In a streaming world where we are monetizing consumption. We’re not looking at 18 months anymore.

My favorite case study, a piece of work by Imagine Dragons, looked to their debut album, did three times as many streams in a second 18 months than it did in its first. What are you going to drop the band because of that? No. We need new rules for the new schools.

So what I did was we street-dated half a million ISRCs on the global streaming platform Luminate – big shout out to Jane, to Scott Ryan, to Helena Kosinski, wonderful people who are always there putting wind in my sail, collaborating with the data so I can do my economics. And we did a donut chart to show where in terms of age is today’s streaming come from with regards to the calendar year 2022 to 90%, Jay, 90% of streams were from after the millennium, from after 2000, from after Rhapsody, Mikey baby, from after when he got that $9.99 license 90% of the streams. So when we think old means the market is dominated with songs from the seventies eighties, no, less than ten, less than 10%.

And by the way, that’s a bit of a shock for your Wall Street analysts who are investing in music catalogs to see that chart thinking it’s so lopsided, to old music is No, it’s not. It’s just that just that old music isn’t that old after all? A bit like myself, right?

MIKE: Ha! And if you get to wave a magic wand, Will, what do you think the real number should be for catalog? If it’s not 18 months, what do you think it should be?

WILL: The actual answer, after doing all the mathematics is simple; you kick 18 months to 36 months. At that point, 45% of your business is frontline, 55% is catalog. And that’s documented in the Imagine Dragons case study. Credit to Music Business Worldwide for publishing, that is a seminal piece of work and it got everybody to agree that something had to change. How you want to change it, that’s your own private business. But they got a consensus.

Another more detailed way of thinking about it is just to be agnostic to age. And what I mean by that is, are there signals in the system, be it on platform, the streaming platform, the Luminate data, via off platform, the socials, the Instagrams, the TikToks, is there something there which says a dollar of marketing here is going to give you a positive rate of return?

You know, Kate Bush “Running Up That Hill,” It was deep catalog. There was nothing on Spotify or Apple telling you what was going to happen was going to happen. But is there something that is? Well, you want to put your marketing dollars behind, Kate Bush “Running Up That Hill,” because it’s going to be a huge upside.

I think there should be a term for that, thinking out loud here – “momentum marketing” could be a useful term, and stock market traders refer to this too. Is there something in the stock that says buying this stock now, irrespective of it, my TMT sector is staples sector or you know, that’s typically areas that you invest in. Is there something in this stock which says this momentum behind it, a little push here is going to push you a whole lot further ahead. I think that’s what the music industry needs is to get its head around momentum marketing.

“music is now more than twice that of the global cinema worldwide box office”

JAY: You know, one of the things I learned from this report was just the sheer size of the music industry. You had stated in the in the report that music is now more than twice that of the global cinema worldwide box office – wow! – and just under half of the online video streaming market, but still a fraction of the gaming industry. Where do you see additional growth? Is there still money being left on the table?

WILL: Yeah, firstly, the price debate. I think we can get prices up a lot further without seeing that churn. And but I do think that we’re now at that point of saturation in America and U.K., where I’m literally seeing some services grow and others contract. We know what’s going on in the marketplace right now. So it’s all going to come down to price now.

We’re going to be like telco operators where the only way you can get ARPU is stealing all those customers or jacking up your price without having churn. Simples. When you look at the emerging market, there’s something that maybe I could do for your podcast in the future is to give a simple metric to understand when Luminate reports huge growth in global streams.

“you can confuse the per stream in America with the ARPU in India”

Where is that coming from? Because if it’s emerging markets, it’s not going to be huge growth in global dollars. I always like to joke that you can confuse the per stream in America with the ARPU in India, only that’s not actually a joke. So, we need some sort of metric. I’ve talked in the past about trade weighted exchange rates. We have one simple tool that blends and weights all these variables together. We need some simple metric to understand if I’m seeing 18% growth in the volume streams, but I know that most that’s coming from emerging markets, that probably equates to 1% growth in monetary value. And we can curb our expectations about how that’s going to go forward.

That said, just a quick shout out to what’s happening in emerging markets. Each is very nuanced. Each has their own characteristics. I don’t want to generalize, but we think about potential for a minute. If you go back to 2001, where Rhapsody is getting its license. The heyday of the music industry, record label execs taking helicopters to their private jets. If we go back, then how many CD players were in India? How many do you think? 10 million? 40 million? I don’t know. Park it. Ask this question: How many smartphones are in India today?

JAY: A lot!

WILL: Right. Count the zeros! So that gives you an idea of the potential for emerging markets to far exceed anything that we’ve seen in the past. Just ignore history, wipe the slate clean. Huge potential there. It’s going to take time. We just need to manage our expectations between the volume of streams that’s going to come from this region and when the value is going to finally come back into.

“herbivores and carnivores”

JAY: As you were describing that, I was remembering the last time we spoke to you and you talked to us about herbivores and carnivores. It sounds like that sort of that world that we’re in now.

WILL: It is. And it’s come and it’s come a lot quicker than I thought. I thought it was going to be round about next year. But this year you started seeing those signs happen in the US and UK.

But you literally have seen some streaming services struggle to grow. Others are breaking away from the pack and others are shedding a little. But, of course, we don’t have the public reporting that Netflix has. But it’s worth remembering that day when Netflix told Wall Street For every hundred subscribers we got in, we lost 168. That was the biggest fall in Wall Street history. Boom! I mean, it’s recovered. If you’re a why, you’d have stepped off the train and stepped back on it a few days later and ride that wave. But that was a huge fall because we don’t really know how to spell the words “net churn” yet. We’ve never been there before, but I think next year we’re going to hear more about net churn than anything else.

MIKE: When we talk about streaming, obviously, it’s certainly major markets slowing down, but physical is actually rising, at least recently. What do you attribute these trends to and what can be done to grow the overall pie?

WILL: Yeah, I’ve got the scientific explanation for you, Mikey baby. The reason why physical is growing so fast is because it’s impossible to roll a spliff on an MP3 file.

JAY: Ha! It really is.

MIKE: Jay was just trying it a minute a go…

WILL: I don’t even know what spliff is…

MIKE: He’s read about them.

JAY: Is that what the kids are calling it?

“vinyl’s moving into third gear”

WILL: Let’s get into this.

This is fast in the area of vinyl. I mean, in the UK and in the US, I think it’s fair to say a 10th of all record label income now is coming from vinyl. For indies that specialize in this, I’m hearing it’s up to a quarter. Like successful indie record labels. $1 in every four is coming from the “platters that matter” and across genres we’re seeing it kick in even more, and hip hop, I think is beginning to wake up to vinyl in a way that surprised me.

Now you’ve got to deal with some constraints, which is [A] production capacity and [B] red tape. And I shout out the company pressing business in my report. That’s Fred Goldring and William Heine, two industry veterans worthy guests of your show. Really worthy guests of your show, who are working with Travis Scott project. What I’ve seen those guys do in Poland, of all places, is slash production times down to – we’re going to drop an album in two months and we can speak to pressing business and have something ready to go within two months. Previously it was 3 to 4 months and the queues were long and they were fractured.

But they’re also doing something else. I think this is another thing which is going to unleash more demand for vinyl is removing red tape so that pressing business you can go to one stop in Poland that serves seven core markets. For example, you can get around Brexit regulation. In the UK, for example, you can get into the US and Latin American markets.

So they’re able to function and I think that’s held back the market a lot up until now as well. So, [A] I think we’re getting the production capacity we need and [B], we’re getting through the red tape that we need to get through as well and then to not to Travis Scott, who reportedly from my understanding, did 500,000 double vinyls at $50 a pop, different colors, different covers, versions, that old game that Taylor Swift has been doing. And it’s shifted well over half of them before the tour even started. Now, the production of each of those vinyls is six bucks. You don’t need an economist to work out what the gross margin is. And you certainly want me to remind you, you’re never going to see that much margin of a fan through streaming. So, yeah, I think vinyl’s moving into third gear. That’s why I conclude there’s still a ways to go yet in this market

JAY: Right. So one of the things I learned from your report – well, there were a lot of things – but there are certain things that I don’t typically think about, like exchange rates. So how are exchange rates – namely the strengthening dollar – how is that affecting some of these revenue figures that you’re working with?

“The market is what the market is. The money is what the money is.”

WILL: So, when you go back to the inflation question that Mike posed at the start, $10.99 feels like $10.99 today. No matter what an economist does to manipulate that number, it’s going to feel like $10.99. I think the same thing with Exchange rates. The market is what the market is. The money is what the money is. But I’ve got to take – and these trade bodies have all got to take these globally sourced figures. The value of streaming in Japan, the value of physical in Germany, and lock all these currencies into one currency and then express it over time with a constant currency.

So if Japan has grown by 9% in 2001, but the exchange rate has fallen by 18% that same year. As you roll Japan yen value into US dollar expression, you lose a ton of the value year on year.

So, if you remember, when we discussed a report last year, the number is $39.6 billion almost by magic, 3 billion vanishes. What I’m stressing to the reader is, don’t lose faith in me. It’s not that I did my sums wrong. It’s just because of this huge volatility in exchange rates. And for me to express it in one currency constantly over time, you’ve got to make sacrifices.

Since one of the sacrifices, as you restate, and in this case deflate what every previous year was worth. It’s a bit of a head f-u-c-k, but it’s required in terms of if we’re going to look at global figures, but we’re talking about a lot of currencies, we need to express them in just one.

MIKE: So, publishing – back at the turn of the millennium, publishers saw about two and a half billion dollars of mostly CD revenue passed through to them. My favorite term!

WILL: Ah, “passed through” – old school.

“Can publishing sustain this level of growth?”

MIKE: Yes! Today publishers are earning about five and a half billion from streaming. Needless to say, that’s a big increase. Can publishing sustain this level of growth?

WILL: I think they can. It’s a very sensitive subject, especially in America, where you have a rate setting board dictating what these publishers are going to see. But I think a few points; firstly, to stress that when you do this calculation, it’s interesting to see that labels walk away with most of the money. One of the reasons they do, is because when you have consumer licensing that typically favors the label over the publishers. Simple ratio, Spotify gets a label a dollar, they’re giving the publisher $0.29, $0.30.

And then you have to say, well, okay, labels are benefiting here, but how are publishers doing with that $0.29, $0.30 compared to the past? And that’s the chart that you picked out there, which is compared to how much publishers saw in aggregate. Remember, this is not a songwriter’s individual bank account. This is aggregate payments. They’re seeing a hell of a lot more than they were seeing from CD sales.

So this transition to streaming has been net / net beneficial to publishers with respect to past income streams.

We’ll park of the comparison with labels for a second. We’ll come back to that.

I think broadly speaking, if I look at the UK, you know, publishers would see 8% of a download. They’re seeing 16% of a stream. I collect double, they’ve doubled their rev share. They’re getting a bigger share of the platform and they’re getting more revenue in today’s terms than they were seeing in yesterday’s terms.

But the important point of making that comparison is to hammer home this thing, which is that we can look at consumer revenues and say the world pivots around subscription streaming. It doesn’t. The whole purpose of the report is to understand holistically all the sources of revenue that come into the business. And when it comes to business licensing, that typically pays a publisher more and the record label less.

Radio, for example, will pay the publishers in the UK far more than it pays record labels. And in America (radio) pays the publishers something and it pays record labels nothing because there’s four countries in the world radio doesn’t pay record labels (for radio airplay). The Democratic Republic of Congo, North Korea, Zimbabwe and United States. You’re in great company, Mikey!

So it’s just really important that we step back from that analysis and remind ourselves. Consumer reviews labels. When publishers lose business revenues, publishers when labels lose. I want to encourage a holistic debate about fairness and avoid the cherry picking that goes on, which is there’s an imbalance and that’s unfair. Well, that’s not the only imbalances there. There’s other imbalances, too.

JAY: So before we let you go, number one, I want to compliment you on such an amazing report, not only informational, but it’s a beautiful report. It’s really easy on the eyes. And I think if we’re afraid inherently of analysis, data and charts and graphs, but if you make it so they can kind of glance and get a sense of what’s going on. I think you did a really good job of that.

WILL: Well, on that, just really quickly, can I just give a big shout out one to Sam Blake based over in Los Angeles, Jay? He’s my copy editor. He takes my Scottish gobbledygook and turns it into coherent prose. And Alice Clark, the designer, a wonderful designer who just knows how I think and is able to underline and illustrate and make words jump off the page.

And thirdly, to my father, Dave Page, back in Scotland, who always taught me to teach economics from the age of 11. He said at the age of 11, he said, Focus When you teach economics to people who; [A] don’t think they’re going to understand it. [B] don’t want to understand it, but [C] have to. So when I write that report, those three lessons are really front of mind.

JAY: The last question I have for you is, as you’re putting these things together, you’ve been doing this a while and you could probably make some assumptions on where some things are going. But were there any surprises? Did anything come out at you and you went, Wow, that’s unexpected?

WILL: I’ll tell you something on the exposure this report got, which was unexpected, and then I’ll turn
to some of the contents that was unexpected.

On the exposure side. When you get the report ready, I don’t have anyone who runs comms for me, so it’s like you’re going to give it to journalists like dogs in heat, wanting an exclusive, and the Financial Times came in saying, We want to run this in Monday’s paper. And I asked a few people who work in comms and said, Well, do I give it to trade? Do I give it to… they said “Will, The Financial Times are saying I’m going to stick it in Monday’s paper. You don’t second question that!”, but it’s an incredible paper. One of the few that still uses fact checkers, want to stress that point. And for 6 hours, Jay, it was a top story in the Financial Times before the Gaza conflict to cover. I think that’s more to do with the picture deliverer than it is to do with my dollars dishwater economics.

JAY: I think it’s a little of both!

WILL: Yeah. I mean, for 6 hours there it was, I screenshotted it – top stories, as you know, for this work, which started off as a little pet project nine years ago to now get top story, albeit for 6 hours in the FT, for me that’s payback.

JAY: I’ll take it.

MIKE: Absolutely.

“last year that one in ten streams on Spotify is coming from DIY artists”

WILL: I like teaching it. I’m teaching for people.

And in terms of the numbers, I mean, I still think there’s so much more to be added in here. I touch on this towards the end, which is you look at MIDiA’s fine work in this space, they always come up. The numbers are higher than the API’s. I think they’re doing their homework more in three areas.

Firstly, understanding the DIY sector. I always like to say, last year that one in ten streams on Spotify is coming from DIY artists. There is a 10th. The recorded music history doesn’t involve record labels. I think. Secondly, understand the independent label sector, which is getting busier and busier. You know, companies like FUGA and Believe, these people are not sitting on their laurels. They’re hungry for market share and are getting some market share.

And then thirdly, the emerging markets. So if you look at South Korea was an outlier, now it’s top ten and it’s probably going to be top five soon. You know, I think major labels, there are 23% of all income. So this task of how do you size the market, how do you calculate it?

“This business could be closer to $50 billion than we might think.”

WILL PAGE: It’s a technical issue here but it’s really important, which is I think even with the current numbers, we’re still missing a trick. This business could be closer to $50 billion than we might think. That is the case when I come back to you this time next year, that means it’s doubled since I first had the report. And that would be saying something.

MIKE: That’s a big number.

And quickly, does anything scare you, though, Will? Is there anything that you’ve seen that’s like – you talk about smoke signals – is there anything that’s kind of like, hmm, that’s interesting and maybe not so good?

“I worry… on the AI music debate”

WILL: I worry, so far so good, on the AI music debate. But I do worry the lawyers lead to knee-jerk reactions, which leads to lack of progress. But so far the signs are good that we’re actually not going to make mistakes that we made with Napster back in 1999. We’re going to work out. We’ve embraced this technology, but I just hope it’s not just lawyers in the room. The purpose of economics is to counterbalance law. We both have points to bring to the table. We both come at things from different perspectives.

But I’m encouraged that that so far has been a positive as well. And so, you know, again, just to make sure that economics has been applied in decision making of this industry to help steer the ship forward. There’s always going to be headwinds is always going to be tailwinds. You’re always going to need lawyers, but you also need economics to balance it all off.

JAY: Will, it’s always such a pleasure to talk with you. Tell our audience, where they can find (book) Pivot, where they can listen to your podcast, where can they learn more about you?

WILL: Well, the website, first of all, is pivotaleconomics.com. I built that website with two people in mind, students and executives. It’s just a resource base where you can get all of my past work.
Every single global value of copyright is up there, including loads of other articles and writings that that can help somebody doing exams this fall and somebody’s making big executive decisions this minute. So that’s up there, then to the podcast and you know, I know you’re listener, Jay, but we’re going to reach our 100th episode on the 27th.

JAY and MIKE: Congratulations!

WILL: The podcast is called Bubble Trouble. It’s myself and Richard Kramer. Brilliant presenter, far better than me. The whole podcast is there to explore why, like The Boy Who Cried Wolf, do we always find ourselves getting back into bubble troubles? You know, why do we never learn? You know, The Who, the band, The Who? When will we not get fooled again?

It’s what’s in my mind. And as the stock market went down. Our audience started to go up. There was a clear relationship there. Oh! Facebook falling through the floor. I might have to start listening to Bubble Trouble.

Anyways, big news. After five years of praying this would happen, we have got Andy Fastow, the former CFO of Enron, to do a two-hour special for 100th episode. There’s no bigger. bubbler or troubler than Enron, and he was a guy who squandered that.

I can give a teaser for your audience. When I first met Andy Fastow, he’s still on stage with two objects in his hand and one hand. He held the CFO of America Award, the highest accolade in corporate America. On the other hand, a ten-year prison sentence card. And he asked, How is it possible that I can be given both things within six months of each other? Only in America? And that doesn’t make you want to tune into this conversation? I don’t know what will.

JAY: Nice teaser.

WILL: Absolutely knocks us out with the best show we’ve ever done.

JAY: All right, well, give my best to Richard. “first time caller, longtime listener.”

WILL: Thank you so much.

Will Page is a British economist, author, podcaster and DJ. He is the former Chief Economist at Spotify, a Fellow of the Royal Society of the Arts, and a Visiting Fellow at the London School of Economics and the Edinburgh Futures Institute.

• BOOK: “Pivot: Eight Principles for Transforming Your Business Through A Time of Disruption” [Simon & Schuster] https://www.simonandschuster.co.uk/books/Pivot/Will-Page/9781471190940
• PODCAST: Bubble Trouble https://www.bubbletroublepodcast.com/